We recently solicited your questions about street gangs for Sudhir Venkatesh, the then-grad student we wrote about in Freakonomics who is now a professor of sociology at Columbia. His answers are, IMHO, fascinating. Your questions were really good, too; thanks. Venkatesh will publish a book, Gang Leader for a Day, in early 2008.
Q: Do you think the HBO series The Wire gives an accurate portrayal of gang life? It is clear from the show (if it is as real as it seems) that traditional policing strategies are very ineffective.
A: I am a huge fan of The Wire. I actually watched Season Two with a group of high ranking gang leaders/drug dealers in Chicago, who desperately wished that the series producers would make a separate show about Chicago! Everyone in the room agreed that the writers did well to show the nuances in the underground economy.
Q: A lot of rappers, particularly Jay-Z and 50 Cent, claim to have been successful crack dealers. Any thoughts on this? Were they just low-level dealers barely making a profit, or did they really have something to pay for their future studio time? Did any of the gang members you knew claim to be on the dealer-to-rapper fast track program?
A: In all my years of studying gangs, I have met only a handful of individuals who have actually participated in the dealer-to-rapper fast track program. Alas, they end up going to jail before they get successful, and most of the ones I’ve seen can’t sing worth a lick. I’m deeply skeptical about rappers who proclaim experience with drug sales. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but for the most part I would be very careful about the claims that are made in songs. Many rappers are highly trained musicians who have spent little time on the streets, as it were — think of Mos Def.
Q: How do you define a gang?
A: Great question. There are a few important legal cases where prosecutors tried to prosecute college fraternities as “gangs.” They suggested that the fraternity was an organization that existed to promote criminal behavior, such as the abuse of women and underage drinking. Most judges threw these cases out because they thought that fraternities were not, by definition, “gangs.” But judges rarely gave a logical reason for excluding (typically white) fraternities from the “gang category.”
Indeed, by any valid social scientific definition of a gang — “an established organization whose members come together for solidarity reasons and who engage in delinquent and/or criminal activities” — a fraternity most certainly qualifies. But race, as we know, can be a factor in shaping judicial outcomes.
Q: Yakima, WA, just passed a law that makes it illegal for anyone to be a gang member, with penalties of up to one year in prison. Also, fines can be imposed on parents for failing to prevent their kids from joining. Do you think laws like this help? Are they effective in any way, shape or form?
A: The problem with these municipal ordinances is that police do not always have a foolproof way of determining gang membership. In Chicago, for example, police department officials told me that 4 out of 5 youths are mistakenly believed to be gang members. In smaller cities — like Yakima — I am almost positive that the rate is much lower. However, police often do not have an effective way of figuring out whether someone is in a gang, so they round up many young people who have never had any involvement in gang activity.
You can imagine that the ACLU typically challenges these ordinances, although they are not always successful in their efforts to overturn them.
A modified version of this initiative is used informally in many poor communities. Police will use a “scared straight” approach by taking young people to the station where they frighten them with information about jail conditions, the possibility of being beaten up by imprisoned gang members, and so on. I know many parents who love it when police “scare” their children into getting off the corner and back into school.
Q: What role do women play in gangs? Are they just for sex? Do they ever get to be in charge? Are they low-level peons?
A: In the 1970s and 1980s, female gangs were independent organizations in places like New York, Chicago, Cleveland, and Milwaukee. They tended to be non-criminal, and usually distributed common funds to their members for day care, rent, groceries, and other needs of single mothers. On occasion, they might have engaged in petty fighting, but not often. They were largely political outfits and functioned like social service agencies in ghetto communities that lacked services.
But toward the end of the ’80s, they became wrapped up in drug trafficking — and, just like gender subordination in corporate America, they were under the thumbs of males in the gang who controlled the economy. They were indeed “peons” who were given the lowest level jobs by men — e.g., watching out for cops, holding drugs, cleaning up after gang parties, prostitution — and they had no power at all. No surprise that the female gangs dissolved over time.
Q: Is there a correlation between illegal drug consumption and gangs? If so, do you support drug legalization?
A: To answer the first question, gang members actually have a fairly low rate of hard drug consumption. Certainly they consume alcohol and marijuana (some may call these hard drugs, of course), but they usually don’t have high rates of heroin, crack, and synthetic drug use. This will change as the gang members get older. Those in their late twenties can be users on occasion, particularly if they are unemployed and looking to the gang for earnings.
I am not sure if I support legalization. I support control by the government, but not necessarily legalization. The former would be immensely helpful from the point of crime control and limiting the secondary effects of drug use, such as hardships on families and devastating impacts on communities. The reason I don’t support legalization is that, whenever an illegal substance becomes legalized (think of alcohol), minorities get the short end of the stick; usually, white ethnic groups have the capital to control the market. This was the story for gambling in the ghetto.
Q: My impression is that increasing police presence in a neighborhood where a gang is operating just moves the problem. I lived for four months in such a neighborhood in Portland, OR, and that seemed to be the case there. The police in my community tell me that … moving the problem is like taking care of a lawn: you have to keep after it all the time or the weeds will take over. What do you think?
A: This is a tough question to answer, because drug trafficking has really changed the behavior of urban gangs. In general, entrepreneur-oriented gangs care about making money, so they will certainly move to new locations when their current place of business proves inhospitable. That is, they differ from gangs in the old days (i.e., before the 1980s when drug-related commerce arrived in force). The earlier gangs protected “turf” and took great pride in being a neighborhood outfit. All forms of illegal commercial activity were a rarity for them.
Having said this, a gang is limited in terms of places where it can go. Gangs have to have some relationship with local residents, store owners, etc. — even if the tie is only that of intimidation. So police usually find that gangs who deal drugs tend to maintain several locations, shifting their movements among different street corners, alleys, apartment buildings, abandoned structures, and so on.
Q: What effect has the rise in crystal methamphetamine (meth) had on gang structures? Following Levitt’s “corporate” description, did the gangs develop different departments, split up completely, or merge? Is meth really that major an issue, or is it simply the new crack?
A: Levitt and I worked on the corporate description in the context of African-American urban street gangs. Meth tends to be rural/suburban and most users are white. The meth economy seems to be controlled by individuals or teams who distribute in a highly localized area. They usually come together only to sell the product, and then they disband until a new sales initiative is put into place. They are not really gangs in the traditional sense of the term, but independent mercenary producers/distributors.
Q: How do gang members see themselves as fitting in with society at large? Do gang members have a real comprehension that the things they do — dealing drugs, engaging in violence, destroying property, scaring people — are widely perceived as not only illegal but also morally wrong?
A: Many gang members who attain leadership status are deeply conscious of their perception by wider society. They tend to make two arguments when discussing their behavior: first, that whites also work in the underground economy but are not prosecuted (or stigmatized) to the same degree (just look at the differential rates of punishment for powder cocaine and crack cocaine — the former is distributed by whites to a far greater degree); and second, that corporations also engage in criminal activity, but are rarely viewed as outlaws — not just Enron, but oil and other companies that have established histories of supporting anti-democratic regimes in developing counties to secure their own profits.
Now, you could say that these analogies are bogus and bold-face rationalizations, and I would agree to some degree. But it is important to look at the world from the perspective of the gang member — who sees everyone as a hustler.
Q: Did you go to all four [Grateful Dead] Alpine Valley shows in 1988 (June 19, 20, 22, 23)? Which one did you think was best?
A: Funny you ask. That year, I made it to the Chicago, Irvine, Oakland, and Stanford shows, most of which were worth remembering. And I was getting ready for a mini-summer tour before grad school began — Minnesota, Alpine Valley and Maine — when my girlfriend told me I needed to make a choice: Jerry Garcia or her. So the answer is, “No, I never made it to Alpine Valley.” And, to this day, I have great regrets: I heard they played Blackbird, which I always wanted to hear…
From 1 to 25 of 35 Comments
First!
— discordianI found this really interesting. I was wondering if anybody knew of any good books about gang culture/economics that I could get while waiting for Venkatesh’s book to come out next year.
— CLawnsbyThis blog has previously mentioned http://www.amazon.com/Cooked-Streets-Stove-Cocaine-Foie/dp/0061153907
I found this to be a really good book.
— garrmarkI liked “Gangs of New York” by Herbert Asbury. The book, not the movie!!! The one about Chicago was interesting too.
oh… you mean modern street gangs…
— discordianHave a lot of respect for Sudhir and have his book and plan to start reading this week. But have my doubts about the rapper/drug dealer comment. I’m from Roseland and while I have never dealt drugs, I know lots of people that dabbled in it. It’s not uncommon for people to do so part-time or to simply grow out of it.
So believing that some rapper, at some point, sold drugs is easy to believe. Now how profitable it was for them is another thing entirely.
I’m also not so sure that most rappers (if we’re talking about the same rappers–I’m thinking your average mainstream thuglike rappers) are classically trained. In fact, I would say that is much less true today than 10-15 years ago.
Tupac is probably a better example of a rapper with real training than Mos Def. But as far as I know, 50 Cent, Biggie, Nelly, Jay-Z, Nas, Chamillionaire, LL Cool J, and about a thousand others don’t have much.
Finally, and I’m just giving you a hard time here, Sudhir, but Mos Def is not the first person that *most* people think of when you say “rapper”. Hell, he’s not the 10th or the eleventh, either.
Not that he’s not good, just maybe he’s not such a good example.
— chrislrobI am curious what Mr. Venkatesh means by supporting “control [of drugs] by the government, but not necessarily legalization.” By control without legalization, does he mean the current approach of proscription, or does he envision some other middle ground where drugs are available through the government though not legal?
— CrashI don’t want to request a spoiler, but does Venkatesh give a recommendation about how to deal with gangs? I think this article describes pretty clearly what *not* to do:
http://bostonreview.net/BR32.4/loury.html
For those who don’t click through, Glenn C Loury argues that our national incarceration policies are fundamentally racist. Taking the article at face value, many of the gang members, having had their life options significantly reduced by early incarceration, really have no choice but to go into the gangs to earn a living.
I’d like to see some further discussion on this topic.
— pparkmanGood stuff.
— Eli CashCrash at no. 6 raises the question that jumps out at me. The alternative to legalization is criminal prohibition, a meat-axe form of (attempted) government control that precludes much of anything more subtle. This is a very tough policy issue, but that line is either overly concise or not well thought out.
— Ken D.I missed the question posts, but I would like to have seen an answer about successful ways to LEAVE gangs. In my experience, the only successful thing I’ve seen is kids moving somewhere far away.
— jybno mention by Venkatesh what he thinks of the social effects of the gangsta TV series- he and many others are “huge fans” (just remember the hulabaloo involving the Sopranos ending)- so if a signifigant portion of adults are ok with glamorizing the gangsta lifestyle, then isn’t this engendering acceptance of that lifestyle by our youth
— frankenduffrankenduf,
As an avid fan of The Wire, too, I think you’d have a tough time making the case that the show glorifies gang activity or selling drugs. Yes, there are flashy cars and jewelry and so forth, but the folks wearing said jewelry and driving said cars are the same one’s getting gunned down in the street or sent to prison each week.
It’s not like The Sopranos or Goodfellas or something like that, where you’re rooting for the criminals the entire time. The cops are as big a part of the show as the gang members, if not moreso, and ultimately, you can’t help but develop certain sympathies for characters on both sides over the course of a season. And just as you might expect in a real gang, some of them are actually pretty decent people, and some aren’t. The same can be said for the cops on the show.
What I’m getting here is that you should watch it, not only because I think your comment is misguided, but also because it’s just that damn good.
— Eli_CashI ask the last question about the Grateful Dead. In the Dubner’s post asking for questions, he practically begged for at least one Dead question. I thought Sudhir started grad school at UofC in the fall of 1988 so it seemed like a good one.
A few comments - Sudhir, I really want to meet this woman you chose over Jerry.
I was at the Thursday show (June 23). The encore was Blackbird into Brokedown Palace. Not a very good Blackbird. The show itself was very good. Second set ended with I Need A Miracle-> Gimme Some Lovin’-> All Along The Watchtower-> Morning Dew.
I just listened to Brokedown Palace from that show. I get a little emotional this time of year. It is hard to believe that Jerry has been dead for 12 years.
Mama, mama many worlds I’ve come since I first left home.
— MartinSo it’s only “racism” that makes us treat fraternities differently than gangs? I must of missed all the stories about the drive-by shootings on fraternity row. Please.
I’m afraid my respect and trust for Venkatesh went down a notch after reading that answer.
— ed“The reason I don’t support legalization is that, whenever an illegal substance becomes legalized (think of alcohol), minorities get the short end of the stick; usually, white ethnic groups have the capital to control the market.”
I don’t get it. Is the problem with legalisation that whites would make more money than others from the drug trade? If so, most areas of commerce should be outlawed, shouldn’t they?
— Sudifed,
Perhaps Venkatesh was referring more to stories like this one (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/04/nyregion/04rider.html?_r=1&ref=education&oref=slogin) as an example of fraternities behaving in similar ways to gangs. Granted, hazing is no drive-by shooting, but plenty of incoming freshman are damaged by the experience. Much like an initiation you might hear about in a gang?
There are also, of course, the warnings almost every girl leaves for college with: protect your glass, don’t let anyone else get your drink, don’t go to parties alone. I’d say that fraternities can be pretty scary in their own right. This isn’t to say all fraternities behave in this manner, but it is something to be considered. Not all gangs commit drive-by shootings, either.
— KCtheres a really good book on very early gang development called “people and folks”.
— malcolmhttp://www.amazon.com/People-Folks-Gangs-Underclass-Rustbelt/dp/0941702464
its centered on the first gangs from chicago, expanding northwards to milwaukee. it is a really interesting read. peep it!
“The reason I don’t support legalization is that, whenever an illegal substance becomes legalized (think of alcohol), minorities get the short end of the stick; usually, white ethnic groups have the capital to control the market.”
What other illegal substance has our government legalized? Cocaine? Heroine? Meth? Crack? Pot? Glue?
“think of alcohol”…(mmmmmm, beer). White People don’t DRINK the beer. We just sell it to the Black People and laugh at the obscene amount of money we’re making. And since there are government regulations stating that “no person of minority status may purchase a home brewing kit to begin the endeavor of a beer distributor company”, that keeps my market safe. Now, I can afford to pimp my beer truck. Thanks Pro-White Government of America!
— QuestionmanA book I really enjoyed was The Corner, written by David Simon and Ed Burns, creators of The Wire. It’s the true story of a family in urban Baltimore that Burns and Simon spent a year interviewing, observing, pretty much all but living with. It’s not primarily about gang economics, but the (divorced) father is an addict and the son joins is a street-seller for a time. It’s written with the same narrative feel as the Wire, but is completely non-fiction.
— Tomfascinating insight. thank you very much.
— SingaporeI have to say, that I could not agree with you in 100% regarding o.us poetry, but it’s just my opinion, which could be wrong :)
— Daniel1. Our system of incarceration is clearly racist in its effects and as such must be changed. The easiest way to do this would be to legalized all drugs and mandate treatmnt for those who commit other crimes under the influence of highly addictive drugs, ie cocaine, opiods, alcohol. Those who argue for prohibition are scum. If you don’t like it, choose not to do it and leave other people alone, as opposed to wasitng everyone’s tax dollars with one of our many spurious wars on intangible things.
2. The Wire is the only television worth watching. Except occasionally Keith Olberman.
3. Of course fraternities are not gangs: since sex and drug use should not be crimes, they don’t do anything wrong. And as for hazing, get over it people. Lots of us have been hazed in some group or other and somehow we’ve managed to live perfectly normal lives.
4. Mos Def is clearly the first person people should think of when they think of rap, though Nas wouldn’t be bad. And though plenty of them have probably sold drugs, one must take what they say with a grain of salt. when Guru says “coming to your house/ to douse you with a molotov cocktail, I won’t fail/ burn out your eyeballs/and leave a note in braille” he’s clearly exaggerating, and so too with the “i’ve sold _________ kilos/ blah blah blah” one gets from commercial thug rappers.
5. Venkat, from what I read in the book, you got some serious stones. keep doing the good work gentlemen.
— josephRE: “The reason I don’t support legalization is that, whenever an illegal substance becomes legalized (think of alcohol), minorities get the short end of the stick; usually, white ethnic groups have the capital to control the market.”
Did he really just say that he’s against legalization because blacks won’t control the market anymore?
— Dave ZinnIf you anyone is interested in learning more about the economics of gangs (particularly in Chicago), just read Sudhir’s book “Off the Books: The Underground Economy of the Urban Poor.” It is eye-opening, to say the least.
— amthank you for the information and questions that you answered. It helped me to do a report that I have for English. =) thanks again.
— sarah